Transcript: Space4U podcast, Paul Lockhart

Written by: Space Foundation Editorial Team

This is Rich Cooper with the Space Foundation. And this is the Space4U podcast — conversations with the people who make today’s space community, and space adventure. Possible I’m joined today by Colonel Paul Lockhart, retired of the U.S. Air Force, but also a retired NASA astronaut, two-time flyer.


And, uh, we’re going to talk a little bit about how character counts and the opportunities that young people, wherever they may be to go on an adventure, not only with Paul, but pursue their own adventure in exploration. Paul is a native of Texas. As I mentioned, he’s a retired Air Force officer with numerous duty assignments around the world.


He’s flown more than 30 aircraft and the space shuttle, which makes him the exact person you want to have in the co-pilot seat at any point, because he’s going to get you there. But as a native of Texas, I’ve got to ask as someone who’s been an adventurer and an explorer, Paul, it’s a great to have you here, but I got to ask you.


How did your life adventure begin? Who was Paul Lockhart as a kid? Thanks, Rich. What a great question to start with, and I’m very pleased to be with you on this podcast and, uh, um, my great, um, uh, you know, appreciation to the Space Foundation for, um, underwriting, all that they do and the impact they have around the world.


So, hey, you’re asking, how did this all begin? And especially out in Texas, well, that’s pretty easy. So go out in the middle of where I grew up, the wind blows hard. Uh, and as you stand out in open fields and you look around, there’s very few trees, so you have a clear view from North, South, East, and West.


And at nighttime, there’s nothing to block the stars overhead. And you take a young boy at that time. So we’re talking the early sixties and you hear about something called a satellite. And your parents take you outside and you pick up that satellite moving from West to East overhead. And it’s just a small dot, but it’s a bright light that’s moving among the stars and you capture a young boy’s imagination.


So that’s where it began. So you really were one of these people who grew up wanting to be an astronaut. Well, the fascination started there, but then when you mix that. That poignant moment when the young boys see something outside of his normal world, meaning the satellites traveling overhead. And you mix that with the exciting images on television.


So the first launches of, uh, the mercury seven astronauts and then the early Apollo launches. Yeah. Well, that kind of grasps you and kind of, uh, takes a young boy. At least it did me at that time and, and say, what an exciting thing to be a part of. And it wasn’t as if I knew anything about it. I just knew that, uh, that space was on television all the time, because it was such a novel experience.


And so it was always covered. And I knew that it was a, uh, an important facet of my young childhood. So, um, yeah, at some point, Hey, maybe first grade that’s when I said I want to be an astronaut. So you think about first grade wanting to be an astronaut growing up at the Mercury Seven Gemini and certainly Apollo.


And as you’re going through school, you’re starting to realize a lot of these subjects are pretty tough. The science, technology, engineering, and math, but what made you think you had the right stuff to be an astronaut? So Rich, that’s a really good question. And it goes back. To college when I was about to graduate with my, degree and I really didn’t know what I wanted to do with it.


And I had kind of gone away from thinking about space, but as I was about to graduate going, okay, what do I want to do now? You know, I did that. Yeah. That gut check, which a lot of folks do and say, well, what does it really interests me? And it was always space. I said, I want to go back. And be a part of our nation’s space program.


The space shuttle was starting to be talked about and so forth. So I went into the only person that had anything to do with space at Texas tech university. So I looked up in the catalog and I found aerospace studies and that happened to be. The Air Force ROTC unit and some of their courses. So I went in to speak to the comment on, of the cadets of the, that unit.


And of course he was a big imposing man and he grabbed me by the shoulders and we started talking. Uh, and at some point during that timeframe, when he said, do you really want to go into space? And I said, sir, I really want to go into space. And he says, well, how bad do you want to fly in space? And I said, sure, I want to fly the space shuttle.


And I’ll clean the toilets in it someday. If they’d let me in. And, and as a side story, that’s what I did get to do as pilot, by the way. But it was right then and there that I made that mindset that I was going to be an astronaut. But going back to your original question, I never knew I had the right stuff to do that.


Right. In other words, I didn’t know if I was a good enough pilot. I didn’t know if my background was good enough, but I did know that I would take every opportunity to do the right thing, to make the right choices to set me up to perhaps get selected, to be an astronaut. Now, further down the line, when I started employing all the skills that the Air Force gave me and I started doing flight task and put myself in difficult situations, I knew I could handle it.


Ah, somewhere along that line, Rich, all of a sudden it all came together and I knew I had the stuff. So if the right stuff has a unique set of ingredients, that when you mix together, create a space fairing individual like yourself. Tell me about the ingredients that you had to develop. To become someone who could do all the things that you just mentioned, flying that aircraft, flying the space shuttle, um, dealing with the plumbing on the space shuttle.


What were all of the, what were those ingredients that you needed to bring to the young boy from Texas who had his eyes on the stars to have all that? Have I have the ingredients to be, to have the right stuff? So, and ingredients is a good way to describe it. And another way is skillsets, as you said. So in a way, I think I had the minimum number of ingredients to get selected, to be a NASA astronaut.


When I got there, I met so many more of my peers who had an even better well-rounded set of skillsets. And if I could go back. To my youth and say, okay, I want to be an astronaut. What do I need to do? I would develop many more of those skill sets that I know are important, uh, to round yourself out as somebody that NASA wants.


But I did have enough of the skill sets and I had enough of the main skill sets and that main one was, can I be a test pilot for a spacecraft and make sure that I make the right decisions at the right time to fly the vehicle and be able to communicate back to the, um, the engineers on the ground, what needed to be done or what needed to be fixed or how can we improve things?


And remain collected and calm in difficult situations. So I did have that set of ingredients, but boy, I tell you, I would like to have had more when I got on orbit and those are the things I always like to tell young adults, you know, what are those other things they can, they can develop. So what do you think are those particular skill sets?


If you were speaking to an young. Well, you do speak to a lot of young audiences. When you tell them about the ingredients besides science, technology, engineering, math, what are some of those other ingredients that you think that they should be putting in their mixing bowl? All right. Well again, perfect question.


And it’s not always the knowledge upstairs that you need. Of course, that’s a big part of it, but it’s so skill sets that transfer, uh, um, uh, thinking. To your hands. And can I do something with his hands to take advantage of the situation I am. So if we think about all of the spacecraft that are, have been developed, that we’re presently using and the ones that are going to go in the future on to the missions that NASA envision, so back to the Moon and then onto Mars and so forth, those are all machinery that are still hands-on metal.


Fabric rubber gaskets, all that kind of stuff. And so where I had to take a young person that said, I want to be an astronaut, I would say, yes, choose your path. You want to go? Do you want to be the pilot? The astronaut that helps fly the vehicle. Um, do you want to be the scientist? Do you want to be the person that’s going to use all of the equipment on board to understand our Earth around us and then deep space, but at the same time, I’d say.


Never turned down an opportunity to learn, to do something that broadens your ability to work with your hands and to understand the environment around you. So if somebody in your family comes to you and says, Hey, do you want to learn how to work on this car? Or do you want to help me fix this lawnmower engine?


Or do you want to learn a foreign language or do you want to play a musical instrument? Do that, because that skillset that you develop for that thing blossoms out across so many different other needs that NASA has. And that’s what makes someone attracted to NASA. Can you come with a multi-faceted sphere of skills?


That NASA may need for that one instance on that one space flight at that one time that makes sure that the mission gets completed successfully or keeps everyone out of harms way. When you think of the people who were your teachers and mentors, who were some of those mentors that helped you gain those ingredients and skills.


That allowed you to succeed as a pilot and as a, as an astronaut. Sure that’s again, it’s a good question. And I always tell young adults and youth that, um, they’re going to meet their mentors along the way, and they need to recognize that mentor and to, to cherish them. So, um, my first one is that kernel that I was telling you about who.


Who basically saw a raw young young man that, uh, was excited to become a pilot. And he said, ah, not only can I help shape this young individual, but I can at the same time, find me a good resource for the Air Force. And so we basically helped each other. And that gentlemen, uh, made sure that I got a pilot slot.


He made me realize that I had to learn. To focus and that I had to plan out my path to become an astronaut that I couldn’t just, um, say it without putting a plan and purpose. The next person was the one that I met. Um, soon after that, when I went to graduate school and I was assigned my, my thesis advisor, and this was the gentleman who was in contrast to the Colonel in the Air Force.


Was sly about it. He basically was behind the scenes, nodding me to the left or pushing me to the right or turning my head a little bit or saying do this. And he, he was the gentleman who sent me up to do my thesis. Well, If I’m getting a master’s in aerospace engineering, I could have done anything, but what did he help me choose?


I got to do my thesis on the, uh, extra vehicular, um, man maneuvering unit, the, um, the, the device that some of the astronauts wore in space. That was kind of like there. Uh, there’s face device that allowed them to free float away from the space shuttle and then come back if necessary. And even though we didn’t use that a lot later in the space program, it still was a program that I learned a lot about.


So I did my thesis on that and I ran computer simulations. And then. He, uh, had me focused on being an operational aerospace engineer. In other words, less theoretical. In other words, I didn’t worry so much about the equations and driving them, but how do I apply those equations? And that’s what I needed to succeed in test fall in school.


And that’s what I needed when I got to NASA was that operational bent. And so I’ve come to honor him over all these years. Uh, because he put me up for awards and did all of the behind-the-scenes stuff that I did know now, at some point the mentoring kind of stopped, right? Because I was old enough and I had grasped everything.


And there was a period of time when I was taking care of myself and my wife was my partner. So she wasn’t my mentor, but she was my partner in succeeding in what we did together. And then at some point, Rich, as you know, the mentorship kind of flips and now it becomes, well, I’ve got to find those young adults that I can help mentor like someone did for me.


So hopefully that was an interesting story or that it’s about paying it forward very much. So, you know, doing for some others, what those did for me. So you’ve been a pilot in the Air Force. That a pilot in the astronaut corps, you have been in very competitive, high stress, high impact areas. And I’m curious after having been the done those experiences and now looking to pay it forward, has your definition of the right stuff changed?


Or those ingredients still pretty much the same add they’re very much the same day, that ride stuff, persona that book and that persona kind of melded right at the time that I had. Um, was working on my graduate degree and I was about to go into the Air Force and knowing that that, that term was at there, I understood it in its raw forms when I was young, which is, uh, you know, the, the, the desire to challenge oneself and to accept risk.


Um, but over the years, it matured greatly. And, uh, became, um, a more complete person of who I am in a sense. It’s just now that the, the term right stuff, uh, envelop to much more than just flying. Right? So the right stuff, I think. Is that set of character traits that each of us must have. If we’re going to have an impact on the world, around us, a positive impact on the world, around us.


And that to me is where I am right now. Looking forward to that opportunity to positively impact, uh, you know, my, my peers and the community around me and especially my nation, which has given me so much, what’s the biggest misconception. How about a career as an astronaut? I think the part that is not expressively thought about all the time is the extensive amount of risk analysis that astronauts and.


And all of those that are associated with our nation’s space program too. So take the launch that just occurred recently, um, the SpaceX launch, and then you had the two astronauts from NASA to peers of mine that were there when I was in the office, as they went into the Dragon space capsule, and then were launched.


The public knows that that’s got risk involved, but what they don’t know is that there was 18 years of engineering and risk analysis and risk reduction that was done during that timeframe to get us to that point where the risk was brought down to a, to a level that was acceptable. And so I don’t think um, that the, the basic public, those that are not involved in things such as aviation or, um, places and have bins that have physical risk behind them, that they realize the extensive amount of risk analysis and this risk balancing that astronauts must do.

In partnership with all of the NASA and contractors, the private industry that’s involved in this space program, that extensive amount of risk analysis that astronauts are doing on a daily basis.


How did the astronaut experience change your life and how did it change your family? So I think for the that’s two parts. So let’s take the second half first. How did it change my family? Well, it was one event that changed my family and that was the loss of Columbia in 2003 February 1st. And I say that because I had the flight just before that mission.


And so we were celebrating the success of our flight. Colombia was commanded by a very close friend of mine. I had known from my hometown for many years. Um, you know, Colonel Rick Husband, a very good man. In fact, I had known his wife since elementary school. So that shows you how collect connected we work.


But when that had been occurred, um, I sat down with Mary, my wife. And said, so where are we right now? Uh, within the spectrum of what we want to do with our family and so forth. You know, we made the decision because I had just flown twice in the space program and we weren’t going to fly for a while and Operation Iraqi freedom had just started and.


Mary. And I both knew we had strong peers and comradery in the Air Force to make the decision to go back to the Air Force, to see if we could positively contribute that way. So I’m talking to you Rich. And my connection with the Space Foundation can be traced back to that decision we made in Houston back in 2003.


Um, and it was a difficult decision. It wasn’t easy that we chose to leave. NASA at that time, because I had worked so hard to get there, uh, and, and had got that I would be there longer, but you know, life never is a straight path that, you know, it throws us the curve balls. And so we have to adapt now, how did this change me as a person?


Uh, I, I felt that being successful in the space program, in other words, having been part of the missions that. Help build the space station gave me the confidence, even though I had it there in many different ways. He gave me the total competence to say, I’m willing to try new things and accept the failure that occurs and try and step way outside.


The, the part of. Just being in aviation and just being in a pilot and just being, you know, a retired astronaut. And then, so that’s why, you know, I find again where I am right here, talking to you, doing the things I am is because I I’ve had that. I guess, that desire to continue to find challenges. And having been an astronaut, it gives me the confidence to try on knowing that the outcome may not be what I choose it to be.


Every astronaut has a mission even after they park their spacecraft. So what’s Paul Lockhart’s mission today. So I’m not ready to, um, you know, I’m not ready to, to sit on the front porch and sit in a rocking chair, per se. Even though there is lots to be said for doing that, I still feel like I have a lot of energy pent up inside and there’s things I want to do and accomplish.


So what is it that I want to do? Right. I want to leave a positive, um, impact in some way. Right. But in other words, I feel like I was fortunate like you do Rich and the Space Foundation. It contributing to our nation’s space program in the, in the space program on a global, on a global basis. But I think that I can also find a way to contribute and connect myself back to my youth a bit.


And so I’m looking for ways to connect with our youth. And show them that, um, their ability to develop themselves now as young adults in a positive manner, combined with the, the desire to think outside of just sitting inside and playing video games and so forth can lead them to exciting, uh, adventures in their life.


So what about those adventures? Tell me about virtuous adventures. Oh, wow. I appreciate you asking. So for the longest time, I said, man, I would really like to write an adventure book, not knowing whether I can write don’t know whether I really can sit down and create something that’s of interest to young adults.


But like I said, I’m willing to try and fail it if that’s what it may be. But I thought I want to write a book for you. And I, and I hearkened back to the books I read when I was a young boy. So the first ones were just, uh, fiction adventure stories. But then I moved on to, um, you know, biographies about our adventurers, um, during the world.


So Marco Polo. Age-appropriate ones, right. As I was a young boy and a teenager. And then eventually, as you can imagine, during college and beyond these progressed into full-fledged, historical biographies to understand the world around us. So I decided I wanted to write a book for these young boys, but I, and I would start the books and then I would, or the book and then.


I just was thinking, how do I know what they want? So a thought came to me one time that said, well, why don’t I try and find a way to write a book with young adults, especially with the technology we have. So I said, I’m going to create a website. I’m going to call it Virtus Adventures, because Virtus is the Latin word that speaks to character.


And with that thought process, my goal. Is to, uh, begin an interaction with youth on, uh, the internet, through a website and Facebook, and then all those other social media being all appropriate and find a core group of. Of young adults that are interested in adventure and, and paving their own way, using their inner character and developing that character to become good citizens of the United States and to find their own adventure someday, whatever that may be, may be in music, it could be in sports.


It could be in teaching, could be a medicine, could be in broadcasting, right? Each of those. disciplines and the thousands more that they can find themselves involved in, in the future, all required courage and then integrity and, and the basic characteristics that you and I both believe in Rich. And so I hope to be able to do that with them instead of just for them.


So if I’m a young person and I’m interested in space or going on an adventure with you, how would I go about having that adventure with you or participating in the writing of this story? Hey, come join me. That’s pretty simple. I, I was a neophyte in this internet website and Facebook and I still am. I have to go talk to my young daughter many times to say now, how does this work?


Or, you know, talk to actually even younger children or younger adults get down to the age appropriate and say, now, how does this work? How do I upload these things? But yet just come to my website at Or find me on Facebook and you can join me on live Facebook events. I had several of these where we talk about, uh, some of the adventures I’ve had and now I want to start bringing in some of the ventures they have, maybe it’s just around the house.


Um, as an example, I talked about a hike. I did to New Guinea many years ago and the sights and the sounds of being deep in the tropical rainforest. Um, but I also want to expand this out and bring in other, um, individuals that I think that these young. That the, these youth would find to be good mentors and role models.


And so I have, as you have too Rich across my career, met so many good people and I know many of them would be willing to come and spend 10 minutes and talk about. How they had to be courageous at the right time and the decisions they made that as a whole made them better people and contributors to their society, their community, and to our nation.


Paul, as I’m talking to you, you’ve got this great bookcase behind you have some absolutely fabulous books. Uh, everything from 1776, John Adams. Uh, Theodore Roosevelt, uh, you know, again, you’ve got some great stories there, but I’d like to, as you think about the stories that you read as a, as a youth, and, and you mentioned the historical biographies, I’d like you to select two or three people that appall could have lunch with, and to sit down with a group of young people and to sort of coach them on their adventure.


In life, whether that be in space or elsewhere. Who would be those two or three people you’d like to have at your lunch table? Well, I, some of them are going to be very familiar names and I think that’s understandably so, but I think many of them are missing miss known and that’s because we referenced them in our history very quickly.


But once you delve into them, I think that they’re, they’re really very important to who we are as a nation. And the first of these is George Washington. Yes. I know everybody knows that name. Dollar bill all of this, but when you start in, think about that, our nation was founded on certain principles and it was very fragile when it started.


Yeah. We had one person, um, uh, at that time who not only led the continental army and then presided over the Continental Congress and, or the, the, you know, the advent that. Formed the constitution and then served as president for two terms. Uh, we would not have been as successful nation, had that one person and it could have been somebody else, but that George, that person, George Washington was the right person at the right time in there so much.


That speaks to who we are as Americans. So that’s one, um, there’s another one I’ll name, uh, that I read the book of course, a long time ago. And that’s Jacqueline Cochran. You may or may not know that, but she was a world-famous ABA tricks. So a female pilot in the 30s, 40s and 50s, and she spanned the time of flying propellers all the way to jet aircraft and her story, having risen from, um, from very meager means from poverty or so to becoming a respected, um, proponent of aviation in the United States told me so much about the courage that she had to have.


So that would be another one. Let’s bring us up now to, um, this timeframe. Uh, you know, I, somebody that I would like to meet right now that I think a lot of would be for example, Condoleezza Rice.


So Condoleezza Rice, uh, ha got her degree, uh, in Russian studies and then served in our United States government and, um, was head of the nationals, um, was the National Security Advisor. So she, um, also having been African American had to tread so many different areas, not only, um, the divide between, um, being an African-American in predominantly white area, but dealing with national security issues as a woman, and then being right on the front stage, especially during, um, the wartime.


In the war on terror in the early 2000s, you know, her biography speaks a lot to me too. So those are three, I could name many, many more, of course, Rich. And you and I, of course, we could sit down and have dinner and talk about many of these. I’m sure yourselves, we will be able to get some of those people to dinner or lunch at some point.


But, uh, uh, let me ask you this, that how important is character to a person to a person’s success? I think it drives it, the source of the bar of success because, um, you know, success is defined in many ways, but to have a term impact on the positive on a society means that, uh, your character had to be there for you to be successful.


And. At the center of that, the reason why someone, or as something is, is successful is because of trust. And as you and I both know if somebody’s character is not self-centered and stable and to be known, uh, trust can’t be developed. And without trust. Then challenges can’t be addressed. Obstacles can be overcome.


Uh, people won’t explore. People won’t take it. They won’t take risks. And so trust is at the very heart of what, um, the society needs to thrive. And that comes from all of us. Um, having a core set of characters, uh, traits that allow us to be, um, meaningful to each of us as an individual. And then collectively as a society, Paul, you’re a gifted speaker.


I I’ve seen you present to a couple or to a number of different audiences and you speak to all ages and all different types of groups on your life and experiences. What’s the message that when someone leaves your presentation, what’s the message you want to make sure they take away from their time with you.


Sure. That’s that’s easy. So I speak both nationally. So here in the U.S. and then I’ll speak internationally and sometimes the messages are different within the U.S. I want them to understand that the United States is one of the few countries that has brought together all three parts of its society and other that being the, the national will, the economics and the technology, and bring this together under a bold and daring plan to, to try and do that, which is most difficult.


I can’t say it any more eloquent than what John F. Kennedy said. We do these things. Not because they are easy, but because they are difficult and I want, yeah every young person and even an adult that I speak to, um, in the U.S. to understand that we, the United States sit at a unique position and that we should feel very proud that we have a space program that is respected and revered around the world and that they are a part of it. I can always point to somebody and say, you know, somebody that’s part of our nation space program internationally.


I want the audience to understand that the United States is a leader in space technology and, um, spaceflight, and that we choose to do so on a collaborative basis that we want to work with them in order to do the deep space exploration, that’s going to come in the future and that we can do so in a partnership.


And that many of these nations have such a long history and strong legacy of aviation that, uh, they are willing and able partners. And I saw that when I was at NASA, because I was part of the largest class that had many international students and what they brought to NASA or bits and pieces that I learned absorb.


And make a part of myself and my, uh, experiences as an astronaut as well. Well, you lead a group called virtuous adventures and I’d like to know what’s the big adventure that Paul Lockhart still wants to embark on. That’s very interesting. You know, what I would really like to do. I feel like when I started my Air Force career, I started out in one of the oldest aircraft in the Air Force.


And I ended up in one of the most newest aircraft. And then I had a chance to go back and, or not go back and I had a chance to advance and fly the space shuttle. So what, uh, wonderful experience to go from. Yeah. From the Earth, one of the earliest jets to the space shuttle, the complexity was just overwhelming.


And I learned so much in all of it and all of those platforms. Uh, but you know, what I’d like to do now is take a step, a giant step backwards. If that makes sense and go back to my Texas roots. And, um, become, uh, I wouldn’t call it an expert, but become comfortable with, um, if this is going to sound a little odd horsemanship.


And I say that because what I would very much want to do at some point. Is to retrace a part of America’s history on horseback and experience what, um, those individuals at that time would have had to do the challenges and the re the challenges since they had to face the risks that they had to over, you know, to address and how did they do that?


And so when you look behind me at the books I had there. Yeah, every time I read about, um, the, the, the great undertakings that the men and women, um, across the globe, but especially in the United States, because of course that’s where we’re from. Then I always say, gee, if I could just absorb that a little bit better.


So if I can find a way to do that in the future, I will. So you’re a fan of Westerns. You know, I, that’s a good question. I, I do like to read historical Westerns per se. Uh, but I’m a fan of all good movies, not just Westerns. Final question. What’s the best piece of advice that someone has ever given to you that has made all the difference in your life as an explorer.


That’s a hard question. And I, I can’t answer that, but I’m not going to answer it. And that one person gave me this advice. It is a consistent message that continues to bubble up. As I went through my career and it’s two parts, one I would hear. And then the other person, or at another time I would hear the second part of it.


This decree or so when these people that I admired would sit there and say, this is how you should be, and it is be bold and do not be afraid to fail. And I think that encaptures, um, the books behind me, I think that encaptures, uh, our nation, I think that encaptures what the Space Foundation does. I think that encaptures what our nation’s space program is.


And I hope that it encaptures, um, a little bit of myself, you know, be bold and don’t be afraid to fail. And so, um, for me, uh, stepping out and trying to write a book with some young adults is a big step for me. Right. I mean, for folks, some folks that would not be hard, but for me, that’s a big, big event. So, um, I’m going to try and do my best to make it successful.


But. Um, within the maximum, but what I just said, I’m not going to be afraid to fail. Paul, I want to thank you for your time. Uh, those of us Space Foundation are very grateful to have people like you in our orbit that engage the next generation of explorers, but are so willing to share your time, your energy and your experience to engage a student, a teacher, a parent, a space enthusiast, a space industry, uh, entrepreneur.


Your story is one that is of inspiration and in encouraging people to be bold, take those risks. Fail fast and learn from that and move forward. Uh, that is what space exploration is all about. That’s what exploration and adventure is all about. Uh, again, Paul leads a program called Virtus Adventures.


You can find more information about that at, where Paul will be happy to engage young people in, uh, writing their new adventure story as he continues his own. So this is Rich Cooper with the Space Foundation. Thank you for joining this Space4U podcast, reminding you that you can always find more information about what is happening AT the Space Foundation at, as well as


And again, the things that we do always benefit from your support. We ask you to consider a donation to us as a 501c3. Your help allows us to make a bigger impact around this world everywhere, because at the Space Foundation, we always have space for you. Thank you for your time.

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Space4U Podcast: Paul Lockhart – Former NASA Astronaut